Friday - Ancient Greek Cooking
Jul. 4th, 2025 12:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Just link parking this here, but it might be interesting to others too.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/podcast-ancient-greek-dinner-parties
Andrew: The whole book is written in Greek. So Deipnosophistae in Greek can be translated as “the philosophers at dinner” or like, “the wise people at dinner.” One scholar that I spoke with had a kind of funny translation. He translated it as “banquet wits,” and he said he likes this because it sounds a little bit like “twits.” And there is like a bit of irreverence or humor in the text itself. So, he thought that that was a funny way of translating it.
Dylan: Yeah, I mean it shows you something about the culture, that there was so much kind of fine dining and social maneuvering happening in this space that someone would go to the trouble of producing a text, which was actually quite a lot of trouble back then, to be like, here’s kind of what you need to know.
Andrew: It’s a very rambling book. The format is hard to pin down. The framing device is that it’s a bunch of people talking at a dinner party. So it’s kind of structured that as the courses of the dinner are coming out, they see a dish and it inspires them to talk about that ingredient. Like the food itself is inspiring what they’re talking about. And they’re telling stories and they’re quoting a lot from other authors. That’s what makes it such an interesting and important text is because it preserves the words of all of these earlier writers. And in some cases, you have writers whose work doesn’t survive in its entirety, but the little piece of it that’s quoted in Deipnosophistae is what we have that survives.
Dylan: It’s like super meta because it’s like in the format of a dinner party conversation, but is also like a great quotes book so that you can reference it for your future dinner. So, Deipnosophistae contains these quotes, it contains these kind of philosophical tidbits, but it also seems like it also has real recipes in here.
Andrew: Well, one of the most significant things is it contains the oldest recorded known recipe in Greek. During this time, especially the Greek cities in what is now Sicily, were known for kind of fancy haute cuisine. And so the recipe that we have in Deipnosophistae is for a grilled fish. It’s a type of fish called ribbon fish, and it’s topped with grated cheese and olive oil.
*****
Dylan: That’s amazing, because there isn’t actually patent law for recipes now. I like the idea of it being a one-year patent on a recipe because it’s kind of like, okay, you get a year to be a really hot star chef, and then everybody gets to take a crack at doing the thing. I kind of feel like that would be a good thing to bring back. So, this book’s fascinating because it’s so many things. In a way, it just reminds me of what I sometimes call a tidbits book, which collects a lot of little stories or a lot of quotes or just this and that. It reminds me of the books that people sometimes put on the back of a toilet, like the Uncle John’s Bathroom Reader kind of thing. The thing that you pick up and you sort of browse through it, it’s not really meant to be necessarily read in a go. You kind of open to some pages and go like, ah, interesting, very enlightening, and then you close it and you put it back on the back of the toilet.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/eat-like-a-greek-philosopher-oldest-fish-recipe
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/podcast-ancient-greek-dinner-parties
Andrew: The whole book is written in Greek. So Deipnosophistae in Greek can be translated as “the philosophers at dinner” or like, “the wise people at dinner.” One scholar that I spoke with had a kind of funny translation. He translated it as “banquet wits,” and he said he likes this because it sounds a little bit like “twits.” And there is like a bit of irreverence or humor in the text itself. So, he thought that that was a funny way of translating it.
Dylan: Yeah, I mean it shows you something about the culture, that there was so much kind of fine dining and social maneuvering happening in this space that someone would go to the trouble of producing a text, which was actually quite a lot of trouble back then, to be like, here’s kind of what you need to know.
Andrew: It’s a very rambling book. The format is hard to pin down. The framing device is that it’s a bunch of people talking at a dinner party. So it’s kind of structured that as the courses of the dinner are coming out, they see a dish and it inspires them to talk about that ingredient. Like the food itself is inspiring what they’re talking about. And they’re telling stories and they’re quoting a lot from other authors. That’s what makes it such an interesting and important text is because it preserves the words of all of these earlier writers. And in some cases, you have writers whose work doesn’t survive in its entirety, but the little piece of it that’s quoted in Deipnosophistae is what we have that survives.
Dylan: It’s like super meta because it’s like in the format of a dinner party conversation, but is also like a great quotes book so that you can reference it for your future dinner. So, Deipnosophistae contains these quotes, it contains these kind of philosophical tidbits, but it also seems like it also has real recipes in here.
Andrew: Well, one of the most significant things is it contains the oldest recorded known recipe in Greek. During this time, especially the Greek cities in what is now Sicily, were known for kind of fancy haute cuisine. And so the recipe that we have in Deipnosophistae is for a grilled fish. It’s a type of fish called ribbon fish, and it’s topped with grated cheese and olive oil.
*****
Dylan: That’s amazing, because there isn’t actually patent law for recipes now. I like the idea of it being a one-year patent on a recipe because it’s kind of like, okay, you get a year to be a really hot star chef, and then everybody gets to take a crack at doing the thing. I kind of feel like that would be a good thing to bring back. So, this book’s fascinating because it’s so many things. In a way, it just reminds me of what I sometimes call a tidbits book, which collects a lot of little stories or a lot of quotes or just this and that. It reminds me of the books that people sometimes put on the back of a toilet, like the Uncle John’s Bathroom Reader kind of thing. The thing that you pick up and you sort of browse through it, it’s not really meant to be necessarily read in a go. You kind of open to some pages and go like, ah, interesting, very enlightening, and then you close it and you put it back on the back of the toilet.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/eat-like-a-greek-philosopher-oldest-fish-recipe